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US - Mexico Relations

the Last Picnic

Join the endangered animals for their Last Supper

 
 

* FACT. The Rio Bosque Wetlands Park was established to preserve the Borderland's fragile and diminishing ecosystem.
* FACT. The Rio Bosque Wetlands Park is the last SAFE HAVEN for the plants and animals of the Chihuahuan Desert Region.
* ACT. The Border Wall will destroy the habitat for the animal's home. WE MUST STOP THE BORDER WALL FROM DESTROYING THE BOSQUE & THE SPECIES.

Please Join our Fight to Save the Bosque & the Species from HARM

* The Animals Can not Organize Politically ...But WE CAN and Will !!!!
* The Animals & Humans Rely on Each other to Maintain Order in Nature...There are many things we need the animals for ... But the animals need our Help TODAY !!!

The Border Wall is immoral and unwise.

* Biology. The Border wall damages the environment & disrupts the ecosystem.
* Psychology. The Border wall represents primitive problem solving methodologies.
* Sociology. The Border wall divides our community.
* History. Progressive thought yields the destruction of Walls [Berlin]....Not Building Walls.
* Economy. We have pressing budget needs such as health, education & welfare to subsidize. This is Government WASTE.
* Aesthetics. The steel & concrete are ugly, blocks the horizon and destroys earth, plants & animals.
* Anthropology. Civilizations become extinct after they ignore the balance between plants, animals & people

We are meeting Monday January 19 to plan our next ACTION. Please contact dixieDeer if you are interested in Joining our GrassRoots campaign against the Border Wall

Public Comments (59)
  • No more free lunch.  [ Wed Jan 14 2009 7:56 PM ]

    *FACT: $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.

    *FACT: $200 Billion dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.

    *FACT: The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US .

    *FACT: During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist

    Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.

    *FACT: The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One million sex crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States .'

    I feel badly about the wetlands park but for the safety and security of America and Americans, we need this wall


    Last edited [1/14/09 7:59 PM]
  • Is there a fucking racoon at the table?  [ Wed Jan 14 2009 9:48 PM ]

    Who invited him?

  • *FACT. Leonardo got it all wrong.  [ Thu Jan 15 2009 7:18 AM ]

    *FACT. The last supper was actually held in a swamp on the Mexican border.

    *FACT. Jesus was actually a shifty-eyed raccoon who sometimes went by the name Rocky.

    *FACT. Madonna was actually some sort of amorphous swamp creature that vaguely resembled a teddy bear.

    *FACT. The 12 Disciples were actually a group of misc. desert rodents, swamp animals, and lounge lizards.

    *FACT. The Holy Grail was actually a discarded empty Jarritos bottle hastily discarded by some passing migrant Mexican hot-footing it across the border..

  • theHot Red Neck'sWrong  [ Thu Jan 15 2009 9:52 AM ]

    *** Wall Wont stop people or drugs

    *** Wall will kill Deer

    *** the HotRedNeck's objections about crime and the increase of "welfare" expenditures have ZERO to do with the Border Wall, Most people from MX just walk through the established ports of entry with temporary tourist, work or student visas

    *** US Government spends more money on Defense than health, education or welfare. a Whopping 611 Billion per year on Defense & many of these dollars are simply welfare for FlagWavingfolks receiving corrupt gov contracts such as building a wall to NoWhere...

    the 2006 Secure Fence Act led to Dept of Homeland Security to build a 700-mile double-layered wall along the border,a little more than a third of the entire 2,000 mile border. This has since been reduced to 670 miles at approx 10 million per Mile, Most Waste WatchDogs agree this Border Fence project is a Government Waste Def. Industry Scam

    The border wall has not been proven to stop illegal immigration or drug trafficking. But it had been proven to waste enormous amounts of taxpayer dollars, stop wildlife from migrating across the border, and severely and irreparably fracture and harm ecosystems.

    Knowing that much of the wall is to be constructed through extremely delicate and protected areas, the Bush administration designed the Act such that environmental laws and review processes could be waived. In fact, citizens, private land owners, border security experts, and land management agencies are all cut out of the decision-making process. As a result, border wall construction has continued unabated with little regard to local economies, private land, or sensitive ecosystems.

    In 2007, Rep. Raúl M. Grijalva introduced the Borderlands Conservation and Security Act. The Act would develop a more flexible border protection strategy, allow stakeholders to have a say in the decision-making process, and ensure that habitat and wildlife are protected. Rep. Grijalva plans to introduce similar legislation in the next Congress.

    yo soy dixie el venadito

    kiero ser tu amigo [even with the HotRedNeck]

    Vivamos juntos en un mundo sin fronteras

    Todos Contra el Muro

    We are inviting the HotRedNeck on stage

    this SAT Jan 17

    10 pm - Atomic Cantina

    Dixie Deer vs. HotRedNeck

    Debating the Pros & Cons of the Border Wall

    100% Peaceful Event

    w/ Mexicans at Night, the Lusitania , Frontrange

    FreeShow...maybe the HotRedNeck will make some decent points but nothing written so far would suggest such....

  • illegal animal immigrants  [ Thu Jan 15 2009 2:44 PM ]

    i can't stand how those Mexican animals keep sneaking across the border to take the jobs of good American animals.

  • Are you talking about that mouse guy  [ Thu Jan 15 2009 2:53 PM ]

    that runs really fast?

  • I think venadito likes me  [ Thu Jan 15 2009 3:33 PM ]

    Are you coming on to me Dixie Deer?

    Well, you can just forget it.

  • The Invisible Wall  [ Thu Jan 15 2009 8:03 PM ]

    The border has always been a controversial issue. However, few people really understand the nature of the border, and by extension, U.S.- Mexico relations - Hot Rod's comments are clear evidence of this ignorance.

    Dixie Deer is absolutely right, the majority of aliens both legal and illegal enter through legal ports-of-entry. The wall does precious little to halt the flow of people or drugs.

    Immigration has decreased significantly since the beginning of the U.S. economic crisis. Let's call that an invisible wall. Unemployment figures for the hispanic population are at a staggering 20%, more than twice the national average! I really don't think they are taking our jobs.

  • You are partly right tinydragon  [ Fri Jan 16 2009 7:38 AM ]

    large numbers of illegals enter our borders through regular border crossings either by being smuggled across in trucks or cars or via temp work visas etc. but of course, NOBODY knows exactly how many enter by which means but most reliable estimates suggest that of the millions of illegals that we currently host, a substantial number of them have entered the country by walking across the vast unprotected stretches of open border.

    One of the most important functions of any government is to clearly define and protect its borders from intrusion and invasion. Our government is currently failing to do this and that must change for the sake of our nation's security, in terms of our health, our physical security, and our economy. Immigration is highly important to us as a nation and indeed, it is the very basis of our existence but it must be controlled and orderly, not random and chaotic.

    Yes it is true that our current economy is influencing illegal immigration but that is no reason to relax security as it is a temporary situation and, in fact, there are signs that Mexico's economic collapse may be imminent which would send illegals across our borders in droves.

    We need to improve security and vigilance at our border crossings, we need to improve the ways in which we monitor recipients of visas, and YES, we need the wall.

  • unless you're a Native American...  [ Fri Jan 16 2009 5:16 PM ]

    ...you're an illegal alien.

  • Not entirely true robertmcat  [ Fri Jan 16 2009 6:32 PM ]

    since, as has been said, "history is written by the victors" and since this bit of turf is now (or more correctly, currently) the United States of America, in a sense, Native Americans are the "legal" aliens or perhaps, the guests in "our" country. Nobody ever said life was supposed to be fair. HA!

  • of course  [ Sat Jan 17 2009 7:55 AM ]

    Of course life is not fair. That is why, as human beings, we need to work very hard to make it as fair as possible instead of just throwing up our hands and saying, "Well, that's what animals do." Using nature and natural processes as a justification for inhuman behavior is a total repudiation of what it means to be human. As sentient creatures with the ability to shape and change our environment, we should be obligated to shape and change it into a better form and not just for ourselves.

    As for your "history is written by the victors" nonsense, who says we "won" and who says history has finished being written? I'm not as confident as you seem to be that the last word is in or that we should be satisfied with the way things stand. There's an awful lot of time stretching out before us into the future where even more histories will be written and we will be judged.

    Your Darwinian/Spencerian point of view is tired, sad, and cruel.


    Last edited [1/17/09 7:57 AM]
  • Justice for All  [ Sat Jan 17 2009 9:44 AM ]

    Hot-Rod? When is the last time you did any major surveillance of the border. Last I remember, Albuquerque is 4 hours from the closest border point.

    The crossing statistics fail to include those immigrants who come and go daily, meaning they come work menial jobs in the U.S. and go back to Mexico at the end of the day. Those "millions" take it with a grain of salt.

    Oh yeah, and those 9-11 terrorists...flew in on valid visas, in airplanes! They weren't smuggled in a car trunk, coming to work as construction laborers or kitchen help.

    It is our duty as human citizens, not just U.S. citizens to work on behalf of justice for our fellow humans and animals.

  • hotrod needs schoolin'  [ Sat Jan 17 2009 5:35 PM ]

    This bit of turf as you refer to it "hotrod" is surrounded by pueblos and if you look west a bit, you'll run into navajo land. Native people are not "legal" aliens or otherwise you idiot nor are we "guests". If anything, you are the guest in this country you imbecile. Go home and take your selective memory with you.

  • Aztlan or Occupied Mexico  [ Sat Jan 17 2009 6:29 PM ]

    Two contentious terms for New Mexico which I have always appreciated.

    Of course, nobody here ever considered themselves to be Mexicans, even when they were part of Mexico. And Acoma Pueblo has been continuously occupied by its original occupants for 10,000 years.

    Borders are arbitrary. History isn't.

  • Super duper extra smart FACT  [ Sun Jan 18 2009 12:59 AM ]

    For every 50 foot wall some wise guy will build a 51 foot ladder.

  • Now Hunt rhymes with.....Palin​???  [ Sun Jan 18 2009 1:00 AM ]

    Fact: The wall is not being built for a 20+ mile stretch that borders one of the Hunt brothers property. He was able to convience his buddy dubya that it was not needed on his property and that it would also ruin his view.

  • Spending monies on illegal aliens  [ Sun Jan 18 2009 1:06 AM ]

    Oh yeah - I feel oh so much better that they spent 700 MILLION on the new embassy in Bagdad. And some ignorant old scumfuck is worried that some of his pennies is being spent on the poor of the world...... Idiot.

  • The United States spends more money on  [ Sun Jan 18 2009 7:33 AM ]

    helping the poor and disadvantaged of the world than any other country but we still need to define and protect our own borders for the sake of our own citizens.

    I have no personal problem with letting the Hunt brothers protect their own 20 miles of border in any way they wish.

    In terms of "view", I like this one.


    Play Youtube Video

  • tear it down  [ Mon Jan 19 2009 10:30 AM ]

    Then I guess it's time to take down the Statue of Liberty. Stupid (French) bitch that she is, her offer of refuge and shelter to the world no longer applies. Time to turn off the beacon of liberty and freedom, huh?

  • Yes  [ Mon Jan 19 2009 11:42 AM ]

    No more Statue of Liberty - I am not a fan of green.

  • Wall Will Kill Habitat & Won't Stop People or Drugs  [ Mon Jan 19 2009 11:51 AM ]


    Play Youtube Video

  • The Effectiveness of Walls  [ Mon Jan 19 2009 4:05 PM ]

    For the best example of a boundary wall, look at the Great Wall of China. Built by an autocratic dictator at the expense of unknown thousands (maybe millions) of human lives, it never worked. Neither did the Berlin Wall. Nor did Hadrian's Wall.

    As for the young woman firing the AK-47 in the video, she needs some practice. The chick can't seem to hit anything even using the most reliable fully automatic firearm in the world. If you seriously think that a wall posted with armed guards around America is the answer, what the hell kind of country is that?

  • Dixiedeer and robertmcat you are both right.  [ Mon Jan 19 2009 6:53 PM ]

    A giant wall along our border with Mexico is a clumsy and destructive solution to our problem and yes, immigration is very important to our country, in fact our country has flourished and prospered as a direct result of immigration. We are, in fact, a nation of immigrants. However, immigration must be controlled and orderly as it always has been. We must know who is entering our country, for what purpose, whether their admittance will be beneficial or detrimental, what diseases they may be bringing with them, and many other questions regarding qualifications. No, we cannot simply have wide open borders and have virtually no idea of who, how many, for what purpose, etc. and nor can we permit any sort of tidal wave of the worlds disadvantaged to flood our country as there would soon be no country left.

    So. With the forgoing in mind and knowing also that it is far easier to be critical than constructive, what, exactly, do you propose?

  • Well, Gosh  [ Mon Jan 19 2009 7:59 PM ]

    First, I'm surprised that a self-proclaimed Libertarian is so adamant about government controls on such a personal choice as where to live and work. What business is it of any government's where one chooses to reside and the reasons for so choosing?

    As for a proposal to control immigration, I don't have one. I guess I don't think people should be required to "qualify" to move from place to place. I think people should be allowed to go wherever they want whenever they want. If they are sick, I think they should be given medical care. If they are proven to be criminal, I think they should be prosecuted. If they want to work, they should be able to work. If they don't want to work, it will prove mighty difficult for them to acquire food, clothing, and shelter.

    In other words, I think poor people should have the same privileges that rich people enjoy. I don't want to live in an armed compound that screens potential residents for desirability. I'm nutty like that. I don't think the Founding Fathers of this country did, either. They were nutty like that.

  • What if it was this very BlogThread that got to Decide Things.  [ Mon Jan 19 2009 9:33 PM ]

    It started as a Cry for Help & then a heated exchange between dixie and HotRod...a Classic dialectic..Thesis, Anti-Thesis, then

    the Wonderful World of the WEEKLYaliBlog community chimes in with Meaningful points & now HotRod challenges the critics to MoveForward with Solutions...

    Maybe it's not that complex. So we agree wall is clumsy and Open Borders could be too chaotic...Lets examine why people move or immigrate to begin with.

    Precisely To find food & Quality of Life...So maybe the answer lies in figuring out ways to fight Poverty where Poverty strikes. Who would move if needs were currently being met...

    For perspective's sake,lets examine this dynamic in a domestic contect and move this discussion away from interAmerica relations and focus onUSA. What if there were folks miserable in the inner city of new york, [harlem,] wanting to move to "the Hamptons" for opportunities...Would you build a wall North of New York or do you think there would come a day when life seemed less desirable on Long Island?

    Maybe it boils down to 2 scenarios... propping up the poor with programs , or Bringing down the Rich with taxes... or a new system of shared wealth, power, and prestige...

    Future dixieDeer Blogs will address such Basic Questions...i think the answer is somewhere in Matthew 25 [though dixie is not religious]

  • Both of you seem a little confused  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 8:02 AM ]

    as to exactly what a country or a government is but from anyone's perspective, Libertarian or not, one of the most important functions of any government is to clearly define, protect and defend the borders that it governs from invasion or intrusion for the safety and security of its own citizens.

    To make that point a little more clear to you, let's bring the concept to a more personal level.

    I don't know anything about the personal lives of either one of you, I don't know if you have partners, families, children, jobs, cars, or what you possess but I would assume that each of you, at the very least, has a computer and a place to plug it in, an apartment or a home. When you leave your home, do you lock your door? Why? Why do you even have a door? Why? Suppose some disadvantaged person needs or wants the food in your refrigerator or your TV or your computer? Why can't he just come in and take it? If you have a car, why not leave the key in the ignition and a full tank of gas in case somebody needs to go someplace? Perhaps you own a bicycle. Why not leave it on the sidewalk without a lock for the same reason?

    If you truly believe that the United States should leave its "door" wide open for any and all to enter and help themselves, let's start with YOU. I dare you. I challenge you and while your at it, why not publish your address and a list of your possessions right here since the whole world already knows where the United States is and what it has in its "refrigerator" and in its "living room".

    Well?

  • You are approaching to solve the Puzzle I have laid out for You  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 10:19 AM ]

    Chaos , si

    Confusion, si

    This is the exact environment I [we]Crave and LikeWise, like a kooky architect disSerVing his clientele,You shall spin around in a scary spell of disbelief &the Nudesign you shall inherit. Your need for structure, order & predictability shall be met with a heavy dose of disorder, disobedience, & Subversion shall cross your path soon. yo soy diXie el venadito...Todos Contra el Muro...and I have spoken. I wish you Well within the new Paradigm...mt 25,31-46-but im not religious...atAll&everShallBE

  • Confusion  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 11:24 AM ]

    I think the confusion is yours, Hotrod. I can't find it anywhere, this pledge to define and defend the borders of the country. What our political office holders and military personnel do swear to protect and defend is the Constitution of the United States of America. By doing that, they protect and defend its citizens.

    That being said, you've once again wandered into fallacy. You seem to assume that America is being invaded by a hostile force intent on stripping us of our wealth. Upon what evidence is that assumption based? Furthermore, just because I own a computer doesn't mean I would deny anyone else the ability to own one, too. As a matter of fact, I help support the system that allows anyone who doesn't own a computer free access to one through our public libraries. I support a system that provides food, clothing, shelter, transportation, and money to people who find themselves without (though not nearly enough or often enough). I am willing and able to support it even more than I am asked to now. So, in that very real sense, my doors are open.

    To follow your penchant for simplistic analogy, what if I sealed up my house and refused entry to all? My refrigerator would quickly stop running without electricity as would my computer with its internet access. Why would I need an automobile or a bicycle? If I used them, I would have to unseal my property. I suppose I could try to raise my own food, but my diet would suffer in variety and nutritional value. How would I receive mail or news of the outside world? What if I shuttered my windows and ignored all pleas for cooperation or help from outside? What would my neighbors think of my paranoia and fearful hostility?

    See the problem with oversimplification and false analogy (two other kinds of fallacy)? My country is not my house and the problems inherent with both are not the same. And opening the doors to one is not the same as opening the doors to the other. I can do one without doing the other. My home and possessions are private property; my country is public property. There is a difference.

    I return to my first point. If our governing officials would confine themselves to protecting and defending the Constitution, the rest will take care of itself. If it doesn't, then we can call the United States a failed 233-year old experiment. If we abandon the ideals expressed through that document for expediency's sake then, again, the experiment will have failed. I'd like to think that we as Americans are not ready to abandon those ideals or walk away from the greatest political experiment in human history. The world changes, we must change with it, and one of the truly beautiful things about the Constitution is that it allows for change without the abandonment of those ideals.

    So, I decline to publish my address and/or the contents of my refrigerator and still remain confident that the doors to my country will remain open and should open even wider to all those seeking freedom.

  • HAHAHAHAHAHA!!​! ROFLOL.  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 7:16 PM ]

    Both of your responses are, in essence, the same response and they do not surprise me, given their source. One is more off-the-wall-wacko while the other is more verbose but they can both be quickly summed up by the old phrase, "If you can't blind with brilliance, baffle with bullshit". Obviously, a "country" must be surrounded by specific boundaries or it is not a country at all and those boundaries must be clearly defined and protected in order to serve and protect those citizens living within as is mandated by our Constitution. Unless, of course you want to claim the entire world as being part and parcel of the United States of America. Is that what you claim? If you are claiming the entire world as coming under the jurisdiction of the American government, you are obviously suffering under delusions of grandeur befitting the most despotic dictators in all of history, congratulations! Otherwise, our country must be defined as 13 states, or 48 states, or 51 states with each state having a certain area and certain boundaries. This is pretty basic, is it not? Once this simple truth is established and understood, my "simplistic analogy" maintains integrity and my challenge stands.

    My home and possessions are private property; my country is public property. There is a difference.

    Not that much of a difference actually. Yes, your home and possessions are YOUR personal property but OUR country is the PRIVATE property of AMERICANS and NOT the property of Mexicans, French, Swedes, or the peoples of ANY OTHER country and I take as much umbrage at those who would enter OUR private property uninvited and partake of OUR goods and services as you take of someone helping themselves to the contents of YOUR refrigerator.

    Now. What's in that fridge of yours? I'm hungry.

  • 51 states?  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 8:19 PM ]

    You'd best count the stars on that flag you're waving. I guess I understand why you chose to use the number 13 and even the number 48, but 51? Do you know something the rest of us don't know?

    This most recent post's fallacy is called the Straw Man whereby you've taken a portion of my argument, distorted it to a ridiculous extreme, and then argue against that extreme as if it were my original argument. Honestly, Hotrod, you should buy a textbook or visit a website where such things are explained ([link] is the first one that pops up after a Google search). Your "talking points" might be a little more rational after a little homework. And "HAHAHAHAHAHA ROFL!" seems rather disrespectful and unwarranted. Oh, and juvenile, too.

    As far as facts go, I can go to Mexico, France, or Sweden anytime I want without being "invited." I can even eat there if I get hungry. If I get sick, I can go to a hospital. Personally, I've even worked in a foreign country. And Swedes and French people and Mexicans don't have to wait for an "invitation" to visit the United States.

    As for your notion that the United States is the private property of its citizens, those portions of this country deemed public are actually in trust for the people of the United States under the stewardship of whatever local, state, or federal agency carries jurisdiction. By belonging to everyone they are owned by no one and Americans, French people, Swedes, or Mexicans can go see the Grand Canyon or Yellowstone Park or Bandelier any time they wish.

    I think what you consider "obvious" may not be so at all. Borders are funny things. They're sometimes blurry or imprecise, often ignored, most times arbitrary, change frequently, and are of little real use to anyone other than nationalists and import/exporters.

    And I remain confident that I can both love and honor the Constitution and the "invitation" extended by the Statue of Liberty without being obligated to let you into my refrigerator. If you're really hungry, though, you can have last night's lamb and zucchini.

    As for DixieDeer's last post, I'm as baffled as anyone else. Matthew 25 is the Parable of the Ten Virgins. The Book of Matthew ends at Chap. 28 so I have no idea what 31-46 might contain.

    Anyway, the longer this goes on, the sadder and more tired I become. I want to talk about something else. Nick Brown is way more fun to banter with.

  • Sorry 'bout that. Just a typo.  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 8:28 PM ]

    I made almost the same mistake that Mr. Obama made when he claimed 57 states!

  • No, actually you can NOT go to Mexico,  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 8:38 PM ]

    France, or Sweden as a visitor without being invited as you will receive an automatic TRAVEL VISA on entry (it will be stamped into your passport). If you try to MOVE there without going through proper immigration channels, you will quickly find out just how UN-welcome you are. My argument stands and speaking of standing, you have not a leg on which to so yes, you may as well give in.

  • oh, pshaw  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 9:25 PM ]

    Now you're just scrambling. You just keep changing the subject, your stance, your points, your mind. It never ends. Bill O'Reilly calls that "bloviating."

  • And, yes  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 9:26 PM ]

    And, yes, I give in to your endless, fallacious silliness.

  • Hotrod  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 10:09 PM ]

    You're wrong about Mexico. No travel visa needed as long as you're limiting your travel to within 20-30 km of the border.

  • thanks, maren  [ Tue Jan 20 2009 10:23 PM ]

    and hotrod is wrong about many, many things...

  • Oh pshaw nothing robertmcat  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 6:12 AM ]

    I have steadfastly responded to your erroneous statements one by one. My only shortcoming is not spending (wasting) the time to address every single last rediculous of them.

    That is correct Maren however only a minor technicality and it does not alter the thrust of my statement to say that Mexico graciously offers a tourist welcome to within a few miles of its border but just you try to extend your stay or extend your travels deeper into the country and you will quickly find out what the inside of a Mexican jail cell looks like.

    Don't forget rule number one Maren:

    1). Hotrod is always right.

  • To return once more to the original issue  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 7:18 AM ]

    before dixiedeer's head exploded in a multi-colored psychedelic light show of sight and sound and before robertmcat took us on an extended, meandering, rambling journey of verbose triviality, the original question, I believe, was all about the construction of a wall along the US/Mexico border. It is an incontrovertible FACT of life that virtually all major countries of the world wisely guard their borders zealously and are extremely restrictive of whom they will allow to immigrate to within those borders. There is no reason for the United States to do otherwise and therefore, we need the wall as well as any other security measures which we deem necessary to defend ourselves against ILLEGAL immigration.

    If any of you geniuses can propose an effective and viable alternative to the wall, let's hear it. Otherwise, your public verbal masturbation here is neither attractive, constructive, or useful.

  • Tip for Maren...  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 8:01 AM ]

    Check out Cancun on Zuni, very nice and we loved the food pictures on the outside.

  • it's just not true  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 8:39 AM ]

    It's just not true that Hotrod is always right. It is true that Hotrod is a bad listener and, apparently, spends that time instead thinking of what he will spew next, thinking of ways to mock and belittle those who disagree with him, and just plain making things up. Discourse is "written or spoken communication or debate," and it is true that Hotrod is not interested in that. Instead, Hotrod just bulls his way forward with walls of fallacious verbage daring one-and-all to call him out and ignoring them when they do.

    It is not a fact that that "virtually all major countries of the world wisely guard their borders zealously...." One of Hotrod's many failings at discourse is his tendency to present "facts" without support or evidence. The word "virtually" points to that lack. The proofs of his arguments do not exist. It is a fact that all the borders of the world are extremely porous and penetrated consistently and constantly despite the best efforts of any who "zealously" guard them.

    It is a fact that Hotrod changes his arguments in midstream when it appears that he is wrong. For instance, in this thread alone, he's said he's for a wall, against a wall, and now returns to being for a wall. Rather than defend and prove his arguments, he changes them constantly to suit his immediate needs. This is called sophistry.

    It is a fact that when he's faced with a reasonable argument that seems to disprove what he asserts, Hotrod retreats to name-calling and attempts to humiliate those any who dare to disagree with his poorly reasoned assertions.

    It is a fact that there is no reasoning with Hotrod because reason itself does not figure into most of his arguments. Hotrod wants to "win" and will say anything to do so. The main weapon in his arsenal appears to be simple tenacity, his refusal to just stop and listen to what other people are saying, but instead he just plows ahead with a new batch of unproven facts and unreasoned assertions. This is called close-mindedness.

    Read the rest of Hotrod's posts on this and other topics. His intellectual house of cards is fragile and this emperor has no clothes. Instead, he gestures wildly and widely to distract his readers from his nakedness.

  • Rascal  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 8:41 AM ]

    But I do think the raccoon should allowed to sit at the table. Didn't you ever read Rascal by Sterling North, Nick? I see them dead by the roadside almost everyday and it would be nice if someone gave them a nice meal at a well-set table with napkins and stuff.

  • Rules  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 9:04 AM ]

    Rule number one is Maren is always hot!

  • Ha. Racoons. They're so stupid  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 9:32 AM ]

    with their little hands and their little bandit masks. Always washing their food and leading their little babies around.

    I read the Cliffs Notes for Rascal. It was ok.

    When I was a kid I had a pet racoon named Rangoon. Mean as shit. Maybe he was even rabid, I dunno. He eventually figured out how to undue the hasp on his cage and vanished in the night.

  • evoluiton  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 10:09 AM ]

    Raccoons are well on their way to evolving into some kind of monkey. Here in NY, they have begun to form small corporations and have developed several raccoon-oriented businesses such as the We'll Wash It For You stores that they've built next to a lot of fast food places. For a very reasonable price, raccoons will dip your burger and fries into a fast-moving stream and then hand them back to you. They still can't drive worth shit, though, and raccoon-on-raccoon vehicular homicide is a growing problem that needs to be addressed.

  • I've heard...  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 10:13 AM ]

    raccoon-on-raccoon violence is moving out of the forest and into local parks too. Scary!

  • it's true  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 10:18 AM ]

    But their graffiti is really hard to understand. It's only about 18 inches off the ground and pretty messy. Would you call that Wild(erness) Style?

  • Jeez Louise. More nonsense by robertmcat  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 7:05 PM ]

    First, in response to my very logical and reasonable and true statement that, "virtually all major countries of the world wisely guard their borders zealously and are extremely restrictive of whom they will allow to immigrate to within those borders." he pedantically picks out my commonplace misuse of the word "virtually" and also claims that my statement is "not true" while presenting no proof whatsoever to the contrary. Well of course it is true which is not to say that countries are completely successful at totally eliminating illegal immigration, obviously they can not be but they will most certainly do whatever they can towards that end and I would venture a guess that the United States has the most rampant illegal immigration problem in the world which should certainly be reason enough to warrant the most drastic actions to reduce it.

    No, I do NOT "change my arguments in mid-stream" as you say. Yes, I am for a wall and also, yes I am against a wall. As I have carefully explained, a wall along a border is a clumsy means of preventing illegal immigration and I do not favor it BUT, if no better ideas are forthcoming, and this wall appears to be the best means of addressing the problem then, I AM IN FAVOR OF IT. I trust I have made myself clear on that issue. I don't know how else to explain myself with more clarity.

    Perhaps you would care to explain why you think that the Statue of Liberty is a "stupid (French) bitch" that should be torn down or why you think the United States is a "failed 233-year old experiment". Do you see how easy and nonproductive it is to take someone's statement and deliberately misunderstand it?

    Regarding name calling, I believe I have been called many more rude names and been subjected to more insults in these comment sections than I have to others but I have broad shoulders and I shall not complain.

    I'll tell you what robertmcat, if you find this discussion tedious and tiresome, I'll let you off the hook okay? We will shake hands right here and end it so that you can return to your discussions about raccoon graffiti and I will leave you alone. Deal?

  • oh, hotrod  [ Wed Jan 21 2009 8:53 PM ]

    It's getting so tedious...For a wall, against a wall, for a wall again until something better comes along...Disingenuously misusing language and acting offended when called out for it...Acting rude and boorish because someone else acted rude and boorish to you. It just goes 'round and 'round and 'round.

    Proving a negative is difficult if not impossible, but I'll try. The countries that "zealously" guard their borders tend to be places like Cuba, the People's Republic of China, North Korea, and Vietnam. And it would appear that the bulk of their efforts are to keep people in rather than keeping people out. The countries that don't "zealously" guard their borders tend to be places like the United States, Great Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Brazil, The Netherlands, New Zealand and Australia. While those countries do keep a careful watch on their points of entry and a cursory eye on their borders as a whole, the most effort seems to be concentrated on keeping contraband and criminals out.

    Apologies to the Statue of Liberty; I should know that sarcasm doesn't work well in print and without tone of voice. If, however, we abandon the ideals of freedom set forth by the Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, if we renege on the offer made by the Statue of Liberty to the wretched refuse of the world, and especially if we do so out of fear and xenophobia, then the U.S. is truly a failed experiment. The last administration pushed us well along the way to doing just that; I can only hope the new administration will undo some of that damage. Otherwise, we should just change the country's name to Airstrip One and admit that Orwell was right about our future when he wrote 1984.

    If I was ever on a hook, it wasn't yours. And raccoon graffiti is fucking cool (albeit hard to read).

  • a visual Tool from DixieDeer  [ Thu Jan 22 2009 8:56 AM ]

    Sorry I had a 3 day DATE with WHippy DippyDaZe but

    I'm Back on Task

    - si, the original intent was to demonstrate that the WALL maybe just in our MINDS...I like this image as Motivation and Inspiration, like Nothing can STOP US..

    ...I especially enjoy this in SLOW MO..


    Play Youtube Video

    Sorry, but above me someone mentioned that I was wrong about passage Matt 25:31-46,,, AS emphasized in previous posts, i'm not really religious ,but as an amateur fan of exegetical study, It is fun to draw LessonPoints on precisely why it may not be Wise to SEal off our Borders,ThusweavingMeaning into some of the skirmishes above...

    Mateo 25:31-46 (La Biblia de las Américas)

    El juicio final

    31Pero cuando el Hijo del Hombre venga en su gloria, y todos los ángeles con El, entonces se sentará en el trono de su gloria;

    32y serán reunidas delante de El todas las naciones; y separará a unos de otros, como el pastor separa las ovejas de los cabritos.

    33Y pondrá las ovejas a su derecha y los cabritos a su izquierda.

    34Entonces el Rey dirá a los de su derecha: "Venid, benditos de mi Padre, heredad el reino preparado para vosotros desde la fundación del mundo.

    35"Porque tuve hambre, y me disteis de comer; tuve sed, y me disteis de beber; fui forastero, y me recibisteis;

    36estaba desnudo, y me vestisteis; enfermo, y me visitasteis; en la cárcel, y vinisteis a mí."

    37Entonces los justos le responderán, diciendo: "Señor, ¿cuándo te vimos hambriento, y te dimos de comer, o sediento, y te dimos de beber?

    38"¿Y cuándo te vimos como forastero, y te recibimos, o desnudo, y te vestimos?

    39"¿Y cuándo te vimos enfermo, o en la cárcel, y vinimos a ti?"

    40Respondiendo el Rey, les dirá: "En verdad os digo que en cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos hermanos míos, aun a los más pequeños, a mí lo hicisteis."

    41Entonces dirá también a los de su izquierda: "Apartaos de mí, malditos, al fuego eterno que ha sido preparado para el diablo y sus ángeles.

    42"Porque tuve hambre, y no me disteis de comer, tuve sed, y no me disteis de beber;

    43fui forastero, y no me recibisteis; estaba desnudo, y no me vestisteis; enfermo, y en la cárcel, y no me visitasteis."

    44Entonces ellos también responderán, diciendo: "Señor, ¿cuándo te vimos hambriento, o sediento, o como forastero, o desnudo, o enfermo, o en la cárcel, y no te servimos?"

    45El entonces les responderá, diciendo: "En verdad os digo que en cuanto no lo hicisteis a uno de los más pequeños de éstos, tampoco a mí lo hicisteis."

    46Y éstos irán al castigo eterno, pero los justos a la vida eterna.

  • very cool video  [ Thu Jan 22 2009 9:14 AM ]

    I love watching anything leaping anything in a single bound. Around where I live, the deer have learned to crawl under fences as well. Drives people crazy.

    Also, that was my confusion regarding chapters and verses in Matthew. Thanks for the clarification.

  • hmm  [ Thu Jan 22 2009 11:24 AM ]

    Dixiedeer wrote:

    So we agree wall is clumsy and Open Borders could be too chaotic...Lets examine why people move or immigrate to begin with.

    I have a better idea: Let's examine why people are illegally immigrating instead of legally immigrating. Is it because we would tell them no? If our policy is to send a message to the world, "we don't want you," then I think the wall is almost irrelevant, and it is not really the Statue of Liberty's anathema. Whether we build it or abstain, we still have a problem.

    If people are choosing to do their immigration illegally instead of legally, because it's somehow more profitable (e.g. they get to avoid taxes or various indignities imposed by Big Brother) then I think it's fair to try to equalize things. Whether that means we should forcefully impose more burdens on immigrants (and I think that's what the point of the wall is: to theoretically make legal entry the only option), or it means that we need to take some of our freedoms back, then becomes the question.

  • Good point Sloppy and well put.  [ Thu Jan 22 2009 7:54 PM ]

    And you have certainly hit the nail with your head. The reason why people are immigrating illegally is because it is DIFFICULT to do it legally just exactly as it is and as it should be to immigrate into every single one of the countries that robertmcat has mentioned in a previous post, namely, Great Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Brazil, The Netherlands, New Zealand and Australia. When it comes to immigration, nobody wants wide open borders but we, and these other countries, do NOT want to say to the world that "we don't want you". We and all other developed countries want to send the message that "We DO want SOME of you but we want to know some things about you first such as who you are, what your goals are, and what you may be able to contribute to our country". This is not unreasonable and this is how it has been for a very long time. The Polish, Irish, Eastern European, and other immigrants who entered our country through Ellis Island at the turn of the last century, our grandparents and our great grandparents, were carefully screened and many were sent back because of illness or other reasons. Harsh? Perhaps but reality sometimes is. Yes, the wall is clumsy and wide open borders are too chaotic and totally unacceptable so, unless somebody can come up with a less clumsy and a better way to protect our borders from illegal infiltration, we need the wall.

    Could somebody please check dixiedeer's green card? Oh...... Sorry...... Forget I said that.

  • don't try to emulate those other countries  [ Fri Jan 23 2009 9:23 AM ]

    The reason why people are immigrating illegally is because it is DIFFICULT to do it legally just exactly as it is and as it should be to immigrate into every single one of the countries that robertmcat has mentioned in a previous post, namely, Great Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Brazil, The Netherlands, New Zealand and Australia. .. We .. want to send the message that "We DO want SOME of you but we want to know some things about you first such as who you are, what your goals are, and what you may be able to contribute to our country"

    My ideal America should be easier to immigrate to, than all those countries. That last criterion, "what you may be able to contribute," is the one I wouldn't ask about. We don't ask that of our native citizens either, because America doesn't have a social agenda other than freedom itself. That was the one thing that made America come to be; it's what sets us apart. That is our gimmick.

    I don't have a problem with looking at other countries' policies for ideas, but I would never use them as examples. We should be shaming them, not emulating them. I don't want to hear about French immigration policy except when we're making fun of how backward the Old World is.

    But back to the illegal aspect..

    Yes, the wall is clumsy and wide open borders are too chaotic and totally unacceptable so, unless somebody can come up with a less clumsy and a better way to protect our borders from illegal infiltration, we need the wall.

    I think your opponents' point might be that the wall will be ineffective, and does so much collateral damage (border-area resident's property rights, the animal migration problem that dixieDeer brings up, etc) that doing nothing is actually a better alternative. And I lean toward thinking that too, simple because an un-manned wall isn't a serious obstacle to a thinking attacker. A deer might not think to bring a ladder, but a person sure can. When you have thousands of miles, you need tens of thousands of people working on the job. Just how much are you willing to spend on this? I can't imagine America putting the same fraction of resources into this, that East Germany did.

    If we had the perimeter manned already and then they came and said, "we could sure use a wall" I might take the idea a little more seriously. Until then, I smell just another government contractor cash grab.

  • I agree, Sloppy, with  [ Fri Jan 23 2009 5:22 PM ]

    most of what you say however, the fact remains that the United States is currently host to an estimated 12,000,000 (12 million) illegal immigrants and possibly as many as 20 million. A very large number and, to many of us, an unacceptable number. The cost of supporting that number of illegals is staggering and at a time when we can scant afford it so, if not the wall, what? Do we ignore the situation, keep fingers crossed, and hope for the best? Would that be your strategy? Suppose Mexico's economy should collapse (it is currently at risk of doing just that) and we have 40 million illegal immigrants or 60 million? At what point do we take some action? How many is too many? Do we continue to simply take in more and more until our own economy topples over for the sake of saving some deer? What about United States citizens and legal immigrants, do they matter?

  • Who are these people Sloppy?  [ Sat Jan 24 2009 6:41 AM ]

    A valid question to ask about those who wish to enter your country, who are these 12 million (or 20 million) people? Well, you can bet the ranch that they are NOT Mexico's finest, most up-standing citizenry. They are the dregs. Sure, there will be many who are poor but honest and hard working people but you will also get a great many who are drug dealers, gang members, murderers, rapists, and many who have good reason to leave Mexico to escape their own criminal past, Mexico's most wanted if you will. Do you imagine that by setting foot on American soil, they will somehow magically be transformed into model citizens? Rubbish. They will continue to do what they do best until they have done sufficient damage to American lives to warrant being guests of our prison system, at taxpayer expense of course.

    Yes, as long as this unfortunate situation exists, we need walls, we need controls, we need guidelines as to who may enter our country and who may not.

  • my alternative to the wall  [ Mon Jan 26 2009 11:06 AM ]

    Would that be your strategy?

    Well, you won't like it, because (I think?) we disagree on how difficult legal immigration should be. I recommend we set policies such that legal immigration is easier/cheaper than illegal immigration.

    Well, you can bet the ranch that they are NOT Mexico's finest, most up-standing citizenry. They are the dregs. Sure, there will be many who are poor but honest and hard working people but you will also get a great many who are drug dealers, gang members, murderers, rapists, and many who have good reason to leave Mexico to escape their own criminal past, Mexico's most wanted if you will.

    I don't know that. Got some stats to back that up? (And I don't just mean horror-story anecdotes, or someone will just throw some other anecdotes at you.)

  • Mexico's Most Wanted  [ Tue Jan 27 2009 8:47 PM ]

    Recent news seems to indicate that "Mexico's most wanted" are its politicians and the police.

    As far as horror stories, around here the illegals are more often victims than victimizers. A favorite local pastime is jumping illegals after work and stealing their cash. Knocking them off bikes or just beating the crap out of them or killing them rates pretty high, too.

    As we've agreed earlier, walls don't work. Even walls with armed guards every few feet are easily penetrated with a "golden" key. I still say people should be able to live and work wherever they want.

    Not to get all mushy, but compassion seems to hold more answers to this (and all) problems than does force.

  • I Saw Hot Rod On TV!!!  [ Thu Jan 29 2009 12:07 PM ]

    He was (playing?)a supporting redneck on a "Reno 911" episode...remember the one where Garcia and Junior travel down to help build a section of "border defense"?

    The racist/xenophobic aspects of this argument are always well understood, though seldom voiced. And to fail to understand the transitory nature of borders, and the concomitant refusal by those who live and work on either side of such arbitrary and imaginary lines to acknowledge them (except by force), is to demonstrate a profound ignorance of both borders and people.

    Does the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, and the boundaries it establishes,thus justify Norteno wall building as a defense against invading Anglo's, who seem to have just run wild ever since we let "just a few" settle here?

    Why build walls when bridges would work better?

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