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 V.18 No.35 | August 27 - September 2, 2009 

Neverending Stories

Hot for Health Care

Rowdy debate erupts at town hall

Demonstrators at the health care town hall on Saturday, Aug. 22 at UNM’s Continuing Education building.
Marisa Demarco
Demonstrators at the health care town hall on Saturday, Aug. 22 at UNM’s Continuing Education building.

Rep. Martin Heinrich voiced support for a "robust public option" to a wash of boos and cheers at the health care town hall on Saturday, Aug. 22. But he was unable to say later whether he would vote in favor of a bill that lacked a government-run medical plan to compete with private insurance. "We'll have to see what the final product looks like," he said of HB 3200, the reform measure making its way through the House.

A cyclist and a protester bearing a sign with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi wearing a Joker grimace almost came to blows in the parking lot before the meeting. Those against and in favor of health care reform as proposed [“Health Care on Life Support,” July 16-22] intermingled on the sidewalk in front of UNM's Continuing Education building. The Raging Grannies serenaded attendees with folk songs as a long line filed under metal detectors. Once inside, security rooted through backpacks and purses.

“There is nothing in there that takes choice away.”

Rep. Heinrich on death panels

During the event, discourse was raucous among the 600 participants but managed by moderator and ex-news anchor Augusta Meyers. The audience submitted written questions, which were randomly fished out of a plastic bin.

Heinrich identified the fundamental problem in the debate as choice—you can't tell people who want private health care you're going to move them to a not yet created public system. He stressed that the measure would not eliminate private insurance for those who want it. But he did mention insurance reform, requiring companies not to limit access for those with pre-existing conditions and requiring pharmaceutical companies to negotiate better prices for drugs.

 
Marisa Demarco
 

Paul Gessing, president of the Rio Grande Foundation, anchored the right on the panel and advocated another plan. In it, individuals would receive tax credits, pay for basic care themselves and involve insurance companies only in the case of expensive emergencies. "I don't like insurance companies as much as the rest of you," he said. He compared it to car insurance, which kicks in when you've had an accident.

Michael Richards chairs the ER department at UNM Hospital and spoke of the ineffective system in place. Uninsured people don't see doctors for preventive care, then are struck with something serious and head into the emergency room. They can't afford the bill, which often hovers around $1,000 and can slide easily into $8,000 territory, he said. Care in an ER, he added, is three to four times as expensive as medical help in nonacute venues. UNM's emergency room lost $8 million last year, and that means longer waits and lower wages for physicians, according to Richards.

 
Marisa Demarco
 

John R. Vigil runs Doctor On Call Urgent Care Clinics. He said he doesn't accept Medicare because the rules are knotty.

A question relating to so-called "death panels" drew a swell of cheers and boos from the audience. Heinrich responded by saying the spread of misinformation on this topic was a disappointing tactic. "There is nothing in there that takes choice away," he assured.

An audience member said he bet Heinrich wouldn't put his family on the public plan if it passed. "I'll take your bet and raise you one," the congressman said. "If we get the bill in the House, I'd be happy to sign onto it. I think other folks for whom the answer is different, they ought to be able to pursue that also."

Public Comments (8)
  • Heinrich doesn't know Shit! He is a junior ass-kisser to the Power.  [ Tue Sep 1 2009 9:59 AM ]

    Read-up a little, Martin:

    --

    [link]

    From the pages of the "Healthcare" bill:

    "· Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the government option!

    · Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

    · Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

    · Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)

    · Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.

    · Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

    · Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

    · Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

    · Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)

    · Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

    · Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)

    · Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens

    · Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.

    · Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

    · Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.""

    [link]

  • uh, stormcrow  [ Tue Sep 1 2009 11:17 AM ]

    That's a link to someone's blog, not a bill. And that blog doesn't link to a bill either. It just makes a bunch of claims about what is supposedly on what page. Got anything to back it up? Or is this just another "death panel?"

  • StormCrow, eh?  [ Tue Sep 1 2009 11:31 AM ]

    Abstruse logic, baseless claims backed up by dubious sources, postwhoring that puts me to shame... This all seems familiar...

    Hi Hotrod!

  • Here's some links, and thanks for insisting on Good Evidence, Documentation-​  [ Tue Sep 1 2009 5:12 PM ]

    You asked for it, you got it:

    Here is a partial list of some excerpts from the 1,018 page health-care bill that is contained in the second footnote below.

    "· Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the government option!

    · Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

    · Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

    · Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)

    · Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.

    · Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

    · Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

    · Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

    · Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)

    · Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

    · Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)

    · Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens

    · Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.

    · Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

    · Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.""

    LINKS!---

    1) Obama Reverse Campaign Pledge to Renegotiate NAFTA [link]

    2) Little Gems from the Healthcare Bill [link]

    Little gems from the Health Care Bill - BlackListed News

    [link]

    2a) The Entire Healthcare Bill in the House of Representatives [link]

    3) Charles Bowden on Mexico's Dirty War Against Drugs - video [link]

    4) 57 Trillion Reasons to Murder a Hundred Million Americans With Poisonous Vaccinations [link]

    Let's keep a Good exchange going, fellers.

    Most folks, including the Woman in your life, are extremely ignorant when

    confronted with new, painful, threatening information.

    This RUSH_​RUSH healthcare bill is directly tied in with Control-Matrix mandatory

    vaccine program. It will be deemed a Felony to resist your Forced "Vaccination".

    Check the last link given in the list....lots of intelligent reading at that site.

  • Nonsense, Hotrod! (1 of 2)  [ Tue Sep 1 2009 6:55 PM ]

    What a ridiculous interpretation. I'm not motivated to go point for point how things are taken out of context or just plain wrong, so let's address the red ones as I assume they are supposed to be the most important ones. And mind you, this argument comes from a website claiming in the top news on it's home page that "a team of British engineers have designed a real-life spacecraft to save the world from destruction."

    • Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

    This is what the section says:

    SEC. 1173A. STANDARDIZE ELECTRONIC ADMINISTRATIVE TRANSACTIONS.

    (a) STANDARDS FOR FINANCIAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE TRANSACTIONS.

    (1) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary shall adopt and regularly update standards consistent with the goals described in paragraph (2).

    (2) GOALS FOR FINANCIAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE TRANSACTIONS.—The goals for standards under paragraph (1) are that such standards shall—(A) be unique with no conflicting or redundant standards; (B) be authoritative, permitting no additions or constraints for electronic transactions, including companion guides;

    p. 58

    (C) be comprehensive, efficient and robust, requiring minimal augmentation by paper transactions or clarification by further communications; (D) enable the real-time (or near realtime) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility, which may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card; (E) enable, where feasible, near real-time adjudication of claims; (F) provide for timely acknowledgment, response, and status reporting applicable to any electronic transaction deemed appropriate by the Secretary; (G) describe all data elements (such as reason and remark codes) in unambiguous terms, not permit optional fields, require that data elements be either required or conditioned upon set values in other fields, and prohibit additional conditions; and

    p. 59

    (H) harmonize all common data elements across administrative and clinical transaction standards.

    (3) TIME FOR ADOPTION.—Not later than 2 years after the date of implementation of the X12 Version 5010 transaction standards implemented under this part, the Secretary shall adopt standards under this section.

    (4) REQUIREMENTS FOR SPECIFIC STANDARDS.—The standards under this section shall be developed, adopted and enforced so as to—(A) clarify, refine, complete, and expand, as needed, the standards required under section 1173; (B) require paper versions of standardized transactions to comply with the same standards as to data content such that a fully compliant, equivalent electronic transaction can be populated from the data from a paper version; (C) enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with the related health care payment and remittance advice;

    p. 60

    (D) require timely and transparent claim and denial management processes, including tracking, adjudication, and appeal processing ; (E) require the use of a standard electronic transaction with which health care providers may quickly and efficiently enroll with a health plan to conduct the other electronic transactions provided for in this part; and (F) provide for other requirements relating to administrative simplification as identified by the Secretary, in consultation with stake holders.

    Where does it say anything about the government having access to my bank account? It sounds like a lot of bureaucratic jargon how to handle electronic payments.

  • Nonsense, Hotrod! (2 of 2)  [ Tue Sep 1 2009 6:56 PM ]

    • Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.

    I don't know what that is supposed to be implying, but no, it does not say that. It says:

    (4) NOT TREATED AS TAX IMPOSED BY THIS CHAPTER FOR CERTAIN PURPOSES.—The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax imposed by this chapter for purposes of determining the amount of any credit under this chapter or for purposes of section 55.

    • Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.

    • Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.

    Whoever wrote that has no clue what "end-of-life" treatment means. Which is funny because it's clearly describe on the previous page (426):

    An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.

    Furthermore, page 429 says no such thing. Read and be enlightened.

    An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.

    (4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.

    (5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that— (i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;

    p. 430

    (ii) effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual; (iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and (iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.

    Now let's stop it with this nonsense before you're smote by the gods of the interwebz.

  • Little deuce coupe, you don' know what I got  [ Tue Sep 1 2009 9:31 PM ]

    You don't expect them to literally state what they're actually Doing?

    Vroom!

    Vroom!

    The Superstar Starter's windin' out in Low-

    but mah fuel injected stingray really startin' to go-

    To git the trac-tion Ahm ridin' the clutch,

    Mah pressure-plate's burnin'

    Mah Machine's too much!

  • wanna have a bullshit contest?  [ Wed Sep 2 2009 9:22 AM ]

    You don't expect them to literally state what they're actually Doing?

    But then why are you talking about the bill, giving fake page numbers, etc? You could have come here and actually criticized the bill. Instead of criticizing it, you acted like a kook and made shit up.

    Let me guess: you're actually in favor of the current bill, and acting this way in order to discredit-by-association everyone who opposes it. I bet either you own a lot of stock in some insurance company who is going to totally clean up at taxpayer expense, or you're unemployed and looking forward to snagging a government job somewhere in the new bureaucracy.

    See? I can make up stuff too.

 
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